Get Recording Ready

It's easier than ever to grab a guitar and a microphone and hit record—but how can you get the most out of your recording session? We sat down with Joe Gore and Molly Miller, both guitarists and studio pros, for a conversation about how to prepare.

Thanks to G7th for sponsoring this episode. Learn about the Performance 3 and the other ranges of G7th capos at www.G7th.com. 

Additional resources:

• Listen to Part 2 on Patreon.
• Visit Molly Miller's website.
• Visit Joe Gore's website and watch his video lesson for Acoustic Guitar on developing rhythmic independence in your thumb.
• You might also like our "Get Gig Ready" and "Why Should I Plug In?" podcast episodes.
• Check out "A Guide to Getting Started with Home Recording" by Doug Young.

The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Joe Gore—entirely on his 2014 Kris Barnett classical guitar. The percussion is thumps and taps on the body. There’s some home recording processing, like added subharmonics for the bass and compression/EQ for the percussion. 

This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and E.E. Bradman, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.

The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:

• Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
• Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
• Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
• Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
• Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
• Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
• Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez

Transcript

Joe Gore: 0:00

you kind of do have to love your own playing or believe with some degree of conviction that you have the potential to add something really meaningful to a recording.

Nick Grizzle: 0:06

Thank, you, welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast. I'm your host, nick Grizzle, and in today's episode I'm joined by co-host Elton Bradman and two special guests, joe Gore and Molly Miller. The four of us had a lively and fascinating conversation, all about recording acoustic guitars. Both Gore and Miller are seasoned studio pros who have been in sessions with major artists. For Gore, that includes musicians like Tracy Chapman, tom Waits, pj Harvey and Amy Mann, and Miller has been in the studio with Jason Mraz and her own Molly Miller Guitar Trio, and she's a professor of studio guitar at USC. Suffice to say, they have a lot of knowledge and we're very willing to share it.

Nick Grizzle: 2:08

Before we dive in, I'd like to thank G7th, the capo company, for sponsoring this episode. The G7th Performance 3 guitar capo is the culmination of years of designing, tweaking and improving, but, most importantly, listening to guitarists and their views on what a capo should do. Now, coupling their unique tension control system with the groundbreaking Adaptive Radius Technology or ART string pad mechanism, gives a near-perfect capo experience complete control over the pressure placed on your strings and phenomenal tuning stability. For more information about the Performance 3 and other ranges of G7 Capos, go to g7.com Now, without further ado. Enjoy our Get Recording Ready episode. Our guests begin the conversation detailing their acoustic recording bona fides.

Molly Miller: 2:58

So I've done some acoustic recording at home, but I also have been in the studio for different things. I feel like the most notable acoustic thing with my face on on it is I did some work with with Taylor for some uh, acoustic um renditions of Disney songs, that um, like, yeah, I did it. So I did a few of those. But, yeah, just working with different artists recording and then, um, I'll record from home, sometimes acoustic as well.

Joe Gore: 3:26

Tom Waits, tracy Chapman, pj Harvey and I have a lot of experience recording you know, normal sounding acoustic guitars and not so normal sounding ones, cool.

Nick Grizzle: 3:59

So we thought about maybe breaking this up into three sections before, during and after recording. And let's start with getting mentally prepared, because before you even touch the guitar, you have to be in the right headspace, right?

Joe Gore: 4:07

I'm going to suggest even backing up a stage more in generality. And you know, the big question is for whom are you recording? Who's in charge? Are you the artist and recordist and producer? Are you trying to please other people? Are you the artist and recordist and producer? Are you trying to please other people? There's just so many possible ways that you could go into a recording session. If it's a recording session with an artist, it might involve doing a lot of research in their previous music if you haven't heard it, and seeing what sort of things they've done in the past. If you're recording by yourself in your home studio, it's a whole different world. You can suck as much as you like and take as long to get it right, and if the clock's ticking, it's got to sound pretty good on the first take. So the mental preparations might be very different depending on the context of the recording. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

Molly Miller: 5:02

I personally, I think, think, prefer having someone else being the engineer because, you know, just talking about the mental state, I think it's one less thing to be distracted by um and to be consumed by is like making sure all that element, all those elements, because it really is two jobs and so often now I think you know we are doing multiple jobs at once, um, but it's nice just to be the guitarist and, yeah, checking out the artist, who is it for Um, and I feel like also having options. Sometimes I like to go into a session if it's special I mean mine or not mine, mine more. So I know what I want, you know. But if it's someone else's, having options so you're not married to one thing because it's not what you want per se, it's not your vision, it's someone else's vision that you're helping create and hopefully you know your voice is still in it.

Joe Gore: 5:51

Molly, I could not agree with that more. That's very wise. I do hate being my own engineer, but I am almost all the time. But it's grim reality. But in terms of the artist, I think you hit on something really key, which is, if I'm working with an artist and don't know exactly what to expect but say, maybe I've heard some demos or something, I'll go in with a stack full of ideas. But I find that the harder part isn't concocting ideas as much as it is responding in the moment and sometimes the idea that you know is genius, you know that producer is saying let's try something else.

Joe Gore: 6:32

I've blown it a few times by trying to explain the genius of my idea. So it's like having a lot of ideas on tap but then being able to just throw it all out the window and just dive in. Like having a lot of ideas on tap but then being able to just throw it all out the window and just dive in. I find that a very challenging mental leap to make and it's taken me a long time to learn how to do it.

Molly Miller: 6:56

Yeah, I had a challenging situation recently where I was playing for an artist and she kind of gave me. She was like you, do you?

Molly Miller: 7:00

She had heard me recording a different thing and she was like I love what you do like come in and do your thing, and like she had heard me recording a different thing and she just she was like I love what you do, like come in and do your thing and you know, I, we, it was like a live recording so an amazing bassist and drummer as well, and the three of us were just recording live and I was like, yeah, I crushed it. You know, like perfect. And the engineer walks out and the producers are like great, you know, all of you guys sound sounds perfect. And she's like, yeah, no, I don't like what you're doing, molly. And I was like what you don't like me?

Molly Miller: 7:26

And like she had bad demo-itis and she was not a guitar player and played on it, so she had all these things that were out of time and not things that decisions I would ever make that were like very, yeah, like again. But it was her song and so it was this. Like it was so challenging because she'd I play something. She'd be like how do I put this? Play it more out of time, can you not play it? Well? And it was just it was that was one of the more challenging recording situations I I have had a demo, demo.

Joe Gore: 7:56

Itis is a real, is a real thing and as bad as it is in a music session. It's 10 times worse when you're working on a soundtrack, because then they will have watched their film 2,000 times in preparation and they can completely say this is just temp, do you, do you? And what they want is the temp score. I know, and if I were a filmmaker I'd probably fall prey to that too. But yeah, I hear you and that's been really hard sometimes.

Molly Miller: 8:24

Yeah, yeah, it's like really being egoless, which is an impossible thing to do sometimes, as you know, what we do is so closely attached to our egos, but it is. That's like. That's the mental part of it too.

Joe Gore: 8:39

Well, I look, I look at fellow musicians, I'm kind of focusing on the studio world and I realize we should maybe be addressing more home recordists, like most of us are. But, um, when I've done studio sessions with session players who are far more successful and get hired a lot more than I do, it's exact. It is truly the egolessness. Um, I've never been able to defeat my egotism, but I've certainly been humbled a lot over the years.

Nick Grizzle: 9:11

Yeah, so when you're going into the studio or when you're recording your own stuff, do you have a sound in mind ahead of time, and how do you deal with that changing?

Molly Miller: 9:20

You know, if someone nicks it, I let it go, because especially, yeah, yeah to me that that's the, that's when you're being a, a good um, contributor to a record or so you know, like that's when you're being a good participant is understanding, like it's not you. You know, um, yeah, whoever's vision it is, I think listening to them is super important so I, I like all of things.

Molly Miller: 9:45

And also, like you know I know it's not recording per se, but last, just this last week, we started a new song. I'm on tour right now with Jason Mraz and we were working with something a new song, or like like reviving an old song, and I've been attached to some of the things I had done before and the piano player was like Molly, I don't think you should do, I think this other thing would help fill out the sound more, and I was like I really love what I was doing before. And then, like I listened back to the recording, I was like he's right, so it's like not about me playing these like cool little, like trill lines that I love, but instead doing power chords, because that's what the song was called for. And yeah, and I find it's easiest to do that, you know, in a situation where it's not just one thing.

Molly Miller: 10:27

But, even in general, I actually I think if someone says no, I don't struggle with holding on to it. If I, if I, you know, yeah, you're not the only voice in the room.

Joe Gore: 10:38

I see, I see a pattern to this interview which is I'm just basically going to say everything Molly said is brilliant. Which is I'm just basically going to say everything Molly said is brilliant. We're kind of, I think, playing from an overlapping set of experiences. But to bring it back to home recording, let's say you're working on a piece and recording it at home and you're doing it all and you have no one to answer to.

Joe Gore: 11:03

To echo Molly, a lot of times it's playback. A lot of times I don't record that stuff as much as I should, but I'm starting to getting in the habit, even if it's just recording on a voice memo thing. I have a voice memo recorder on my wristwatch and I'm just trying to get in the habit of, you know, hitting it when things are going and then I come back and you know, listen at the end of the day or first thing the next day, and things that you can have a lot of anguish over sometimes just become crystal clear, like I was trying so hard and that just doesn't work. Back to the drawing board or vice versa.

Joe Gore: 11:41

Something you might have played that you just thought was a mediocre idea in passing might really hold up later. It's so hard to maintain listening objectivity over the course of a recording session or mixing session. Our ears are a moving target. We literally um, what we, what we hear, literally differs, um, you know, and after after an hour of playing music and after two hours of playing music it's probably exaggerated in my case because I'm a lot older than Molly, but our ears do fluctuate and having you know, some kind of objective measure, even as, just like a crappy little voice memo recording, can shine a light where there was previously nothing but darkness I love that line our ears are a moving target.

Molly Miller: 12:31

I have never heard that and it's so true. You know, like one minute you think something's amazing and you listen back a day later, or whatever. You're like what was I thinking?

Joe Gore: 12:39

a lot of, a lot of that. A lot of that I developed not from you know sessions or recording, but from writing gear reviews for um other guitar magazines since the dawn of the time. And especially when you say anything negative about a product, you got to back it up with facts you know audio or audio analysis charts or something like that, and also not to pimp my stuff too much. But I have a small guitar pedal company and doing that work of sitting at the bench for an hour going back and forth between two different transistors, you just sometimes can't decide in one session because what you're hearing when you started is literally not what you heard when you began.

Elton Bradman: 13:23

It's amazing, it's like you know what you guys are talking about. You began. It's amazing. It's like you know what you guys are talking about is reminding me of producing oneself, like that's like a whole nother skill set, of of being the artist and being the producer and going back and forth between those things yeah, you know, I started doing this thing some years back and I feel like in like grad school or college, trying to listen back to recordings of myself as if it's not me, because it's actually.

Molly Miller: 13:49

It's a weird thing. You listen differently, we are so much more judgmental of ourselves and I find if I'm listening to another guitar player, I'm not picking out the wrong note, but instead listening to it as a whole.

Elton Bradman: 14:02

So when I listen back to myself, I really try to do that and I don't always accomplish it, but yeah, you know, I think of all those, all the great, great session players who come out with solo albums and it's almost like for me as a listener and music journalist and as a bass player, there's like a certain sub genre of solo albums by session musicians and I'm constantly thinking hmm, okay.

Elton Bradman: 14:30

So they've been in this world and touched by these things and now they decided hell, no, on my solo recording. I'm going to do completely the opposite, or it sounds like what they've spent time recording. You know what I mean.

Joe Gore: 14:43

So I was just wondering. There are probably a lot of good albums in that category, but they're not coming to mind right away.

Joe Gore: 14:49

But all the bad ones sure are in that category, but they're not coming to mind right away, but all the bad ones sure are. I think often it's as simple as here's all the wanking they wouldn't let me do on the session or they wouldn't let me do on stage. Now I'm just going to go full on and just follow my vision, and sometimes the vision is really vulgar and unattractive. Like certain session, players benefit from working with great artists and great producers to shape the ideas and, to varying degrees, the player relationship with the artist and or the producer who may or may not be two people or who may or may not share the same agenda is so case by case and sometimes, sometimes, um, you're, you know, you're getting your direction shaped a lot.

Joe Gore: 15:40

Um, when I work with tom waits, he's astonishing at that because he never gives a specific musical direction. He never says anything like play it up an octave or whatever, but he's standing in front of you like literally twitching, he's very hyperkinetic and it's almost like he's shaping the clay with his hands and saying a little more of this, a little more of that, a little more of that, a little more of that and in the end he hasn't suggested a note and I guess technically I quote made up the part but hasn't suggested a note.

Joe Gore: 16:15

And I guess technically I quote made up the part, but it's a part that wouldn't have existed without that intense feedback and it really kind of has become their part at that point Sometimes. And then other artists are like nah, I don't like that, try something else.

Molly Miller: 16:28

Yeah, I mean, I feel like when you're recording for other people, you have to be so malleable and I don't know. It's like almost telepathic, because everyone like like that's, I feel like what you know, what Joe's saying is like, uh, every artist is so different. Sometimes, like I remember, it's like I want this to sound like an alien came down from space and you have to understand what that means. Or some people will like sing you an exact part, or yeah, and interpreting what the person wants is a whole other skill set.

Joe Gore: 17:04

I agree with Molly.

Nick Grizzle: 17:08

That should be the name of this episode.

Joe Gore: 17:12

Molly talks Joe nods.

Molly Miller: 17:14

Oh my God, I feel like I'm just agreeing with you too.

Nick Grizzle: 17:17

Well, last mental preparation question how do you guys, or have you ever experienced red light fever or jitters before recording?

Molly Miller: 17:25

Yeah, I mean, a couple of times come to mind, and for me sometimes it's random, you don't always know. The last time I had that experience was on that session I was talking about. That was the last time I had it, and I just my brain couldn't work because I felt like it was like I was so shocked and like and just like, oh my God, and like then I was kind of freaking out and typically I feel like that, that's, that was a weird one. That was the last one, and before I could think, I was doing a demo for an acoustic company and I just got nervous, and this was a couple of years ago.

Molly Miller: 18:01

I find, though, things like first just doing them, like the more you do recordings, like the less scary it is, and the other thing is feeling really prepared. I feel like that is the remedy for me for everything. Recording live sessions, like whatever it is, solo working for an artist, is feeling like I know the material well and like cause. Then it's not scary. You know, you have this like calmness about you and I I feel like so much of performing well is, and I feel like so much of performing well is the mental state, because that allows you to have clear thinking, which is then like you're more connected to your instrument and yourself and your ideas. You can be present when you're not thinking oh my God, what's the next chord? Oh God, I should have practiced that more, like that's the most distracting thing.

Elton Bradman: 18:52

So can you break down a little bit of your process? As you go into a session, are you shedding the material in all 12 keys and trying different instruments and making sure your strings are fresh and like on a really basic logistical level, how do you know what's your prep?

Molly Miller: 19:03

Yeah, I mean I think, knowing the music well, and I recorded and listened back to myself to make sure I like how it sounds even just a little voice memo and it is almost like a little, it does add pressure. If it's a piece like one cohesive piece, I'll sometimes perform it for other people, depending what it is. I remember on the Taylor session I was nervous there were solo guitar arrangements that I had to get in one cut that were pretty intricate.

Joe Gore: 19:29

That's intense, that's intense. That's about as intense as it gets.

Molly Miller: 19:33

Yeah, solo guitar chord, melody pieces that people know the melody for, and I had really made intricate arrangements so that I'd play for other people. That's part of it too Recorded myself listening back a bunch, so things like that. And then, yeah, if it's like a session for someone else not necessarily like doing it in all 12 keys, but having multiple ideas, I'd say, and also just like feeling good, like getting, it's like basic things that I think are just like life, things like getting a good night's sleep. For me, maybe, it's like going on a jog in the morning and making sure I have I'm like not hungry, you know. It's like all these things that are just life, things that I think are so important Sleep, eat, exercise, practice your guitar and then you're going to be cool. That's a T-shirt, that's a T-shirt, yeah.

Joe Gore: 20:27

I'm not sure what my take on red light fear is, because I'm generally pretty fearless, or so I used to think, and just a lot of times that pressure brought out the best. It brought out the focus and the intensity. But I don't know anymore, because I'm 65 years old now, and earlier this year I had my first experience playing a concerto as a soloist in front of a large major orchestra, and I was a complete wreck. My friends had to comfort me I was sleeping poorly. Had to comfort me I was sleeping poorly. I got shingles after the session, even though I'd had the vaccine and I, you know, I just had like the most. In that particular context I had like stage fright like I'd never had before. So I used to brag about being fearless, but now I know the truth is I'm a wuss.

Molly Miller: 21:26

No, but I think that in my experience I mean you have, you've done it more than me but like it sneaks up in weird times, like I remember doing. I was doing an acoustic session with just a vocalist, me and her. It was a little live thing like playing open chords and strumming and I don't know what happened, and that was the one that freaked me out, that I got nervous in a moment that didn't make any sense to be nervous. Um, yeah, because most of the time, like I don't feel like I have struggled with nerves, but for the most part I'm pretty good about it and I think it's like the more you do something correct or like you don't freak out, the more you understand like, oh, this is just, I can do this.

Molly Miller: 22:09

And I do agree with Joe where it's like the adrenaline of something I think helps and makes you present. Like I always say, I like to be a little scared going on stage and not scared maybe is the right word, but a little just like on my toes, because I do think when you're like I have to be present, I can't be thinking about other things. Like it makes you be, it makes you better, like that little bit of adrenaline. But it can go the other way, which is the, the red light freak out, um, which sometimes sneaks up in funny moments that always I'm like what, yeah, but then I'd say I don't know, like stop breathe, do something, I don't know this is a tricky thing to discuss because it deals with the border between humility and pride.

Joe Gore: 22:54

I have a lot of friends who are famous guitarists lots more famous and successful than I am or ever will be and even then there's always this kind of putting down your own playing or making these jokes about I'm a guitar polisher, not a guitar player and it's this kind of autopilot modesty.

Joe Gore: 23:15

That's really kind of bogus and I think in a lot of ways, you know you will never learn if you don't have a certain degree of humility. But I also think that at a certain point you kind of do have to love your own playing, or believe that you have not, that you love your own playing, or believe that you have not, that you're always right, but believe that you have something to say and like it and and believe with some degree of conviction that you have the potential to add something really meaningful to a recording. And the more and more experience you get, the more instances you can look back on where you, where you did manage to do that and the ones where you didn't. So I'm not suggesting a sort of bullheaded pride, but just nix the self-abasement and if you're doing it, presumably you've got something to say, and it's not a question of your technique or whatever, it's just believing that you have a voice that, if you're lucky, will be the right voice for the occasion.

Molly Miller: 24:11

I love that. Actually, like a week or two ago we were interlock in playing and we were had a bunch of like. There was a songwriting class there and Jason said this thing that was like struck me talking about. So he's like at a certain please, like I'm my favorite songwriter, you know and it wasn't like he's not an egotistical guy, but he was just like saying this thing and I was like I kind of love that, like you should be your favorite guitar player not like in a like an egotistical way, but you should like what joe's saying, like feel like you have something to say.

Molly Miller: 24:41

And like like the way you sound, love the way you sound. It's like and even feeling, saying that out loud. Like feels like god forbid. You say I love my guitar playing. It's like you're not supposed to, but I don't know. We dedicate our life to this thing. We should value what we do.

Nick Grizzle: 24:57

Yeah, there's a difference between saying I'm the best at something and saying I love what I do. I love the art that I make.

Joe Gore: 25:05

Returning to something Ben asked a while ago about basic preparations. It's a really good question but it's answered pretty simply. I mean, you know, be healthy If you have an opportunity to study the music. Study the music, you know. Bring paper or an iPad and something to write on and take notes. Bring whatever tools you might have in your toolbox.

Joe Gore: 25:29

Like I do a lot of acoustic Ebo playing and you know I wouldn't go to an acoustic session without an Ebo, for example, but that stuff is pretty. Most of that stuff is horse sense, though there's one that's really controversial. I think it's less controversial among people who do it for a living. But you'd mentioned fresh strings, and boy, that's one of the great. That's like talking about tonewood. That's one of the great. That's like talking about tone wood. It's like one of the most divisive topics you can bring up in guitar and guitar recording and personally I'm an advocate on really comfortably stretched out, worn in strings and that generally fresh strings introduce more problems than they address. But you'll find people far greater than me who will walk in and wouldn't do a session without a fresh set of strings.

Molly Miller: 26:16

I think for electric fresh strings and acoustic not fresh strings, but the balance. Like I, I hate crusty strings. I can't touch a guitar that has crusty strings on.

Joe Gore: 26:27

It is my personal opinion especially if it's somebody else's crust.

Molly Miller: 26:32

I know. And one more note on prep, because I like now I'm thinking I have some sessions I've done with, like scary pockets or stories, like, and all that stuff which actually is very acoustic based. Um, they, you go in and you have the song, but you you put the song like you flip the song upside down and you don't know what key it's going to be and you don't know the arrangement. And pompo moves too.

Molly Miller: 26:53

I've done that with where it's like, so you can't really prepare to it in a degree, because sometimes we'll be like let's just change a song and do this song, and that's where I think trusting that you're supposed to be there gives you that clarity of thought so you can be present and use all the skills that you have. It's not like your first day on the job.

Joe Gore: 27:14

And for acoustic strings. Well, I kind of you know, when I was younger and I'd go on tour, I would have fresh strings every night and it felt gross if I didn't. And, um, I really changed that attitude because it's it's really wasteful and part of it is just as simple as um, you know, when I was younger I played with a lot of musicians from West Africa and they can't change strings every night. They've got to make a set of strings last for years and when the string breaks they tie a knot in it, and when they can't tie any more knots in it, they unwind a bicycle cable and use those wires as strings. It's just such a first world thing to you know, to burn through strings. So I've moved much. You know. I've shifted away from changing a lot. I use really high-end strings, I use expensive strings, but I really try to make them last a long time.

Joe Gore: 28:06

As far as going into a session, too much high on acoustic, too much high-end on acoustic, tends to be a bigger problem than the opposite. And you know, depending on your technique or whether you're playing with your fingers or with your picks, the new strings can introduce a lot more string noise. For me, if I had a. Really, if I had a session that was really important for me coming up and I really wanted my instrument to sound its best, I would probably change the strings maybe 48 hours before the session and do a lot of and really play them in you know, put you know four, six hours on them, and to me that's kind of like when it when it's when the string is at its peak, and I'm kind of similar with electric guitar, but I'm weird in that in that for me acoustic guitar and electric guitar are not different instruments.

Molly Miller: 28:54

I understand that. Actually, I feel like I often say that that I don't like that we think of them so differently. But just, I think I have a thing with changing strings before, like a recording session or a big show. I like to change them the day before, maybe two days before, and I just have my whole ritual around it.

Joe Gore: 29:21

Acoustic less because sometimes you'll get the really like high tones that I feel like you don't want. I was just going to say I honestly don't know if this is a function of taste or a function of age, but you know, the older I get, the darker I want all the acoustic guitars to sound. I feel really, really alienated from you know super sizzly acoustic and I want to hear a lot of body warmth and I want to hear the fundamentals of the note really really strongly and I need less of the candy shimmer and I tend to seek out strings that are particularly dark and don't have many overtones. And it's not as crazy as it sounds, because the strings affect each other and if strings, if your low strings, are putting out a ridiculous amount of high overtones or I'm gonna say ridiculous, I mean the kind of overtones you get by putting on a your normal mainstream set of acoustic guitar strings, the high notes that are coming off the low strings are inevitably going to have phase cancellations and dulling out with the higher strings and the more the low strings can just focus on the fundamental and leave the field clear for the strings with higher pitches.

Joe Gore: 30:39

The ultimate example of that and excuse me, I'm drifting a little away from acoustic for a moment is the famous Beetle Bird's 12-string sound. How did they make it jangle so much? They make it jangle so much because they were using flat wound strings and the low strings don't have a lot of overtones on them and the octave strings have all the room in the world to sing. And if you try it back and forth, you know, and trying to play, you know Ticket to Ride or Mr Tambourine man, with or without the flat wound strings, it's like a light switch is on. Oh, that's the jangle and it's not darker. Some strings are darker to let other strings glisten more.

Elton Bradman: 31:20

I was going to ask if both of you have done enough recording now that you probably have a preferred signal chain Maybe not down to the details, but for example you could say you know, I've had good results with this mic, I've had good results with this DI Do you have preferences at this point and how flexible are you about those?

Joe Gore: 31:38

If it's, if I'm going with a producer who I know and trust and respect, or who's paying me, I tend to let them do their job. You know, if Chad Blake is setting up microphones, I'm not going to say anything about how he wants to set up his microphones, but on the other hand, you often go into a session a lot and people might need a little pointers, or they might set up a mic and you kind of subtly adjust it to where you think it sounds right. You mentioned specifically signal chain and I think there's things that are generally true and also for those of us who are working in home studios, even if we own some nice gear, it's not like a mic locker at a studio, I mean, unless we're really rich. And so you know you probably don't have that many choices and you probably get very accustomed to using and very good at using. You know particular tools. The conventional wisdom is that small diaphragm condenser mics are, you know, the number one choice for acoustic guitars, except there's 10,000 examples where that isn't true. It tends to be my default.

Joe Gore: 32:44

I'm going to refer back to what I said earlier about the context mattering, because the musical style can have a lot to do with what single recording choices you make. That's especially true in whether or not to record in stereo. And there are a lot of times where people think they need stereo and mono is the best solution. And there's times where you really do want that stereo and there's times where you can create a convincing stereo image out of a mono single. And again, there's a million exceptions. But to speak in the most generalized averaging out of factors terms, the more instruments are on the track, the more likely I am to use mono. If it's a pop track, you know, like something with a consistent beat that's meant to sound kind of popular, I do mono but might double the part left and right in stereo, I do mono but might double the part left and right in stereo. If it's a solo acoustic recording, you tend to think you want stereo and I tend to use it. But boy, it's a whole world of decisions about. You know, are you going to do it with XY or are you going to do it with mid-side rejection?

Joe Gore: 33:55

When working in stereo, I've become a real fan of ORTF, miciking Technique, and the acronyms are it's a French thing, so it's Office de Radiodiffusion Television Française. Wow, it's something that French radio engineers came up with and talking about. You know there's probably three most common stereo miking techniques. You know one is the setup I'm using my hands to gesture on an audio podcast. That's brilliant, let me put. Let me put, we'll describe.

Joe Gore: 34:27

You know, one method is to simply set up two microphones at some distance apart, kind of angled in towards the guitar. There's a sometimes popular method called mid-side rejection, where you use two mics literally stacked on top of each other like a little microphone sandwich, and you do phasing tricks to create a stereo image. And ORTF works a lot like a binaural head microphone. In ORTF you have two mics, maybe three, four inches apart, both angling in, and I find that that gives a really natural, beautiful stereo image.

Joe Gore: 35:13

It's really easy to get too stereo on your acoustic guitars and there starts to be no center there anymore. And you know, if I want stereo, ortf always seems to work. Um, it tends not to have phase problems when you um, mash it down to mono. Um, you can. You can exaggerate or diminish the perceived width with with plugins. Or you know, audio processing tools and, uh, with ortf you usually use a specialized mic clip where the mic positions are exact. You can't adjust their angles because they sort of calculate what the right angle is, and I'm a big fan of that technique, but big fan of mono too, man.

Molly Miller: 35:54

Yeah, I mean, I agree with Joe, it just like depends what it is. Is it like you're layering five acoustic guitars on, like or what you know, all these different timbres and different parts and octaves and whatnot? So verse, is it solo guitar, you know? And I feel like different things are called for each. And also, yeah, home or at a studio. I mean I have a limited collection of mics, so I have, I use like the limited mics I have, but it works and I, you know I've never had complaints about my acoustic recording jobs. But yeah, definitely go. If it's like something I would, something more high end, I would go to a studio.

Joe Gore: 36:40

But also, you know, to get. Well, it's the. You know, one of the tragedies about recording acoustic guitar is that, unlike on electric guitar, you can get one of the cheapest mics ever made and sound great. A lot of classic recordings were made on a Shure SM57, which is like an $80 microphone. It's not the same on acoustic.

Joe Gore: 36:57

If you use a cheaper dynamic mic on acoustic you might get a sound that's cool, you might get an attitude that's right for the track. Uh, you know, sometimes a horrible sound is the right sound, like, very famously, the keith richards acoustic tone on street fighting man which was like uh, overdriving the preamp in a 1960s cassette recorder. So it kind of sounds like an electric guitar. So lo-fi makes sense. But if you're going, if you're going for fi, you can, you, can, you can. You can do it on a budget. You can.

Joe Gore: 37:27

You know the I I inherited some beautiful Schepps microphones which are a very high end small diaphragm condenser that probably costs a little over three grand a pair. I just I was given them by my father-in-law who was used to be a very talented amateur recordist. And but if you buy, you know the Neumann knockoffs like and they kind of have a lot of them are copied after the Neumann small diaphragm microphone and you're probably getting 80 of the performance for like 20 of the price. You can make you know, you can, you know, basically a lot of them are just chinese or russian clones of german and austrian mics and they often work really well. You can, you know, you can make hi-fi good acoustic recording sounds with with a pair of blue small diaphragm condensers which probably cost $250 or $300.

Molly Miller: 38:24

Yeah, I was going to say it really does depend on the sound you're going for, Because sometimes my favorite recordings are really lo-fi, like just demos that are raw. Yeah, I use an AKG 414 often and I think it sounds great on my acoustic.

Joe Gore: 38:42

Well, that's considered a very high-end studio microphone, but the one I have is like $800 or something.

Molly Miller: 38:48

You know it's not crazy. Like you know you're talking about, yeah, so to me, like that was my gift to myself and I was like now that I'm going to be a serious recorder.

Joe Gore: 38:59

Another thought about. I mentioned in passing doubling. You know, like doubling mono guitars on a on a pop, you know, for a pop sound and I experienced something a few years ago that really opened my eyes, which is when I would do the doubling. I would really try to make it as exact as possible, really exact. And then the tiny little imperfections where it isn't exactly exact give you this lovely left-right animation in the recording where one chord or one note might stand out and it just sort of percolates. But I always focused on making it really tight and one of the best techniques for keeping it tight if you're playing with the ensemble is follow the hi-hat, because a lot of time the drummer's hi-hat and the guitar are doing very, very similar things and there's a great, there's a great potential for um collision of groove. So, having said all that about precision, um, you know, when we, when we started getting to hear all those classic rock recordings split out into individual tracks, there are so many revelations about things you thought people were doing and you were wrong, and one of the most dramatic for me is hearing Johnny Marr tracks with the Smiths split into individual guitars and a lot of tracks where you might not even know there's an acoustic. Lo and behold, there's four acoustic guitars underneath there and his and his technique was was not precision, they're sloppy as hell, but that's you know. When he puts together you know 10, 12, 16 tracks of guitars that that aren't exactly in time. It kind of makes this really compelling smear.

Joe Gore: 40:42

And a particularly notable example is the very first Smith's single, this Charming man, which people think of as an electric guitar song. It's got a prominent electric guitar riff and I think most people, if asked to guess, would say how many guitars are you hearing on this track? And oh, you know, maybe doubled electric, maybe a few little stabs here and there. I'm going to guess three guitars and there's 16 guitars on that song and you wouldn't know it unless you listen for it. I was flabbergasted when I interviewed him many years ago and he told me that that there's 16 tracks of guitars on that song and lots of them are acoustic. Smith's songs are packed with sloppy mixed-in-back acoustic guitars and it just makes this glorious ringing jumble. That was such a unique voice and it really made me question my dedication to maximum precision on doing doubles.

Nick Grizzle: 41:36

That's the end of Part 1. The conversation continues on our Patreon page. Get access for $1 at patreoncom slash acoustic guitar plus. The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is brought to you by the team at Acoustic Guitar Magazine. I'm your host, Nick Grizzle, joined for this episode by Elton Bradman. The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Tanya Gonzalez is our producer. Executive producers are Lizzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos. Our theme song was composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Joe Gore. If you enjoy this podcast and want to support us, please visit our Patreon page at patreoncom slash acoustic guitar plus or find the link in the show notes for this episode. As a supporter, you'll have access to exclusive bonus episodes, along with other special perks, and if you're already a patron. We thank you so much for your support. Thank you.